The Neurohacking Podcast

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:21:14
Speaker 1
Okay then I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today because. So you're a licensed therapist who is also coaching and you've combined your skill sets as a therapist, as a coach, as a mentor to produce these phenomenal results in your clients, where when people are getting stuck, you're able to actually help them get unstuck by leveraging all of your expertize.

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:32:20
Speaker 1
So could you tell me a little bit about the most important lessons you've learned throughout your journey that got you to where? Like how you got to where you're at today? What were the reasons why you're at where you are today, if that makes sense?

00:00:33:15 - 00:01:01:18
Speaker 2
Sure. Well, I think there's a lot of there was a lot of eating of the humble pie. Well, okay. So 23 years old, you graduate college as a therapist and all of a sudden you're like, I'm going to change everyone. I'm changing this whole world. I'm going to help everybody because I got it right. And then there's the later realization that it is arrogance that makes you think you could change people.

00:01:02:03 - 00:01:23:08
Speaker 2
Because as a therapist or a coach or even a mentor or maybe even a teacher, if we want to step even into that realm, which I know we won't, but in all of these categories, what it actually comes down to is you're not changing anyone. What you're doing is you're facilitating a space for change to occur. Yes. And so that was one thing to learn for sure.

00:01:24:03 - 00:01:52:16
Speaker 2
And I think that that took a little bit to get right, because when you're super ambitious and you really believe that you could help, people suddenly believe it's about you. And that's another thing that could take us out of doing really impactful and powerful work with our clients. Because when you start basing their results or their capabilities on yours, if you wind up meeting that one client that's a little stuck or having some trouble is you start thinking it might be something you're doing wrong, which it could be, right?

00:01:52:16 - 00:01:52:26
Speaker 2
It could.

00:01:52:26 - 00:01:54:14
Speaker 1
Be, Bill said, sure, there's a skill.

00:01:54:14 - 00:02:11:00
Speaker 2
Set, but it's not on you to create their change. And so that was probably one of the harder things to learn because they never really, ever really addressed that. Right. And I think that was probably one of the bigger takeaways I've had. There's many more, but I just want to just ramble on.

00:02:11:14 - 00:02:27:15
Speaker 1
Know no good like and I can totally relate to that. I don't know if you'd agree with this, but like it was almost kind of like for me, like wanting to help people was a savior, complex for me because I was so insecure in myself, right out of the fight for like four years. This was like, how do you fight to make you feel better about yourself as you'll quote unquote, save other people?

00:02:27:28 - 00:02:46:22
Speaker 1
What do you feel like? There was an element of that when you were bringing up like OWS, like the humble pie, the arrogance thing happening where it's just like it's not just me, but it's also cultivating that safe space for the client to come to their own breakthrough. It's not like you did it. You're just providing the information and the space so that if it connects the dots for them, then boom, they have that result.

00:02:47:10 - 00:03:06:17
Speaker 2
Right. Well, I think there's there's a few different there's a few different parts to that in my personal story. Right. I grew up always wanting to be a therapist because my dad was a therapist. And so I really deeply admired my dad. And I wanted to do what he did because I think my dad's one of the smartest people I've ever met.

00:03:06:17 - 00:03:25:27
Speaker 2
He's extremely insightful. You can't play a game of Pictionary against him and when it just doesn't happen. And I was always impressed by my dad. And so that was one of the deeper reasons for wanting to become a therapist. And there was also this other part of it too, where growing up I got bullied a lot. I had a lot of trouble fitting in.

00:03:25:27 - 00:03:46:21
Speaker 2
I was very awkward. I was I was a little bit chubby ahead, all of these issues that prevented me from being someone that ever fit in. Right. And so throughout my life, I was formally diagnosed with depression, anxiety, panic disorder. I had suicidal ideation, I had self-harm tendencies. And so I struggled a lot with my own levels of victimhood.

00:03:46:21 - 00:04:16:25
Speaker 2
And as I was experiencing this for most of my life, never fitting in all of this internal pain, there was a final moment of clarity at about 23 years old. So, I mean, even that, right? I was suffering, God knows how long. And so at a certain point, I finally started to figure it out at 23. And that really caused me to look at not only my life, but start looking at other peoples and saying, wow, you know, that this really is possible.

00:04:16:25 - 00:04:39:14
Speaker 2
You don't have to have a diagnosis. You don't have to believe that these things are going to stick with you forever. And so I started getting into almost this personal mission of I want to eradicate the belief that you are sticking with a lifetime diagnosis, that you have to have anxiety, that you have to have depression, that that these things and even Siri agrees.

00:04:39:19 - 00:04:40:21
Speaker 1
That just you're serious.

00:04:41:28 - 00:05:04:26
Speaker 2
That even these things don't have to be a permanent problem. They could be something that's more temporary. And then as I got even more into the depth of my work, learning that these are actually just parts of an identity that you can choose to accept or reject. So I wound up leaving traditional therapy behind because I stopped believing in it.

00:05:04:26 - 00:05:13:02
Speaker 2
Honestly, I stopped believing in the efficacy of the business model that we do today know as traditional formal therapy. How would that.

00:05:13:02 - 00:05:19:00
Speaker 1
Find traditional therapy? So then you got a specific degree. What what kind of degree was that?

00:05:19:09 - 00:05:28:27
Speaker 2
So I got a master's in social work and I was in a clinical focus, which put me more into the 1 to 1 therapeutic trajectory.

00:05:28:27 - 00:05:39:03
Speaker 1
Got it. And then so traditional therapy, how would you define that? So like, you know, because people are like, maybe I need a therapist. So when you're saying traditional therapists, as someone who usually has like a degree in social.

00:05:39:03 - 00:05:39:13
Speaker 2
Work.

00:05:40:01 - 00:05:46:16
Speaker 1
And they're it's a license, you get what the state. Is that right as well. Yeah it's a specific what's the license called. Just out of curiosity.

00:05:46:17 - 00:06:03:02
Speaker 2
I New York state you know social work license. It's just license. It just honestly, it just so just builds on your credential, right? So when you come out of social out of school, you're considered a MSW, which would be a master of social work. Once you get your license, you become a licensed master, social worker.

00:06:03:13 - 00:06:08:07
Speaker 1
And then that's when someone saying, I'm a therapist. That's probably what they mean. That in terms of their credentials at the least.

00:06:08:22 - 00:06:32:01
Speaker 2
At the least, I mean, because a therapist could be an elevated C, which is a license mental health counselor or clinician. Right. You could be you could be a psychologist. You could be a psychotherapist. Right. So you could have a social work degree. L A licensed mental health counselor degree. You could have a psychology degree. So there's just different ways of learning through each of these degrees.

00:06:32:01 - 00:06:54:17
Speaker 1
And so that's interesting that in the umbrella of therapists, though, there's all these different like I don't even know what to call them. It's like different topics. One might be specializing in psychotherapy, like I'm just kind of are you able to unpack that in like a few sentences? Like, because, because people just hear the word therapists. Like, so then we're looking at a traditional model like what does that like?

00:06:54:17 - 00:06:58:17
Speaker 1
You just brought up all these four things. I'm just like, Whoa, what's the difference then? Right? You know what I mean?

00:06:59:02 - 00:07:21:27
Speaker 2
Well, the difference is really just based on the schooling. So like one of the things is I would say I probably didn't learn a ton about psychotherapy in my master's program because the way that mine was specifically tailored was more around the lines of social impact and social justice. However, from talking to other people that are in the social work field, I heard that that was more of a just my school type of deal.

00:07:21:27 - 00:07:40:13
Speaker 2
If I went to a different school, the social work program could have been more tailored to actual psychotherapy as opposed to what mine was tailored for. So I think that's also something that's interesting to understand because I didn't even know that until I started talking to other people. I was like, Yeah, my, you know, my social work school really didn't prepare me for psychotherapy.

00:07:40:13 - 00:08:01:12
Speaker 2
I had to learn a lot of that on my own because I wanted to end. I had a background in Psych already, so other people were like, That's interesting because I went for social work at this school and there was a lot more therapeutic, you know, background and educational aspects in there and said, ha! So I guess it's just a unique to my school type deal, right?

00:08:01:12 - 00:08:13:20
Speaker 2
So everybody will have these different programs and processes that they might have gone through to get their degree based on just their school, their location, what the focus was, right? So everybody's not learning the same.

00:08:13:20 - 00:08:34:20
Speaker 1
So by psychotherapy, it's like when you're saying psychotherapy, it's like tailored to the individual, like you're doing a traditional one on one session and you're providing that counseling support. Okay. Okay, got it. That makes sense. So it's almost kind of like in a sense, like because I'm from health care, right? It's almost like if I'm saying like there's a lot of people who might say, I'm a nurse, but you might be in the E.R., I need your help.

00:08:34:20 - 00:08:43:26
Speaker 1
But then nurse might be like, No, I'm not an E.R. nurse, I'm a clinic nurse or whatever, right? Like there's different types of specialties that also exist within the therapy field.

00:08:43:26 - 00:08:55:01
Speaker 2
Well, they have the so so that's where you could get more on the nitty gritty side of like, do you want to go to the Gottman Institute? Right. Do you want to learn how to work with marriages and families? Do you want to work with children.

00:08:55:21 - 00:08:57:17
Speaker 1
Like an alum? FTE Like marriage.

00:08:57:17 - 00:09:15:13
Speaker 2
And you want to do substance abuse? Do you want to do children only? Do you want to do psychoanalytic? Do you want to focus on behaviorism? Do you want to focus on Maslow's hierarchy so you can kind of choose who your therapist is that you really like or what the modalities are? And you could learn that. But honestly, here's the thing, too.

00:09:15:13 - 00:09:26:20
Speaker 2
A good therapist should know multiple modalities. If you're if you're a one modality therapist, chances are you're only helping like, I don't know, two out of ten people coming to you. Right? Right. You need to be adaptable.

00:09:27:13 - 00:09:28:23
Speaker 1
Depending on the client, on.

00:09:28:23 - 00:09:48:27
Speaker 2
The part, of course, people and and there's there's interchange, right? There's dynamics like we can look at behaviorism and also cross-reference that with human needs theory. Right? Because human needs theory would say that you have to hit this this hierarchy of human needs. Right. But we also know that people only act out of an attempt to reach their needs.

00:09:49:14 - 00:10:14:10
Speaker 2
Right. So there's going to be that cross-pollination. It's like, okay, well, I see that your behavior is impacted by your desire to reach your needs. What level are you at and your needs? Right? What do you need met right now? What's driving your behaviors? And so a lot of these things will go back and forth and then we could bring in psychoanalytic and say, okay, well, let's analyze why you're having these thoughts, why you believe these are your needs, why you believe you're at this place in your needs, which is why that's leading to these behaviors, right?

00:10:14:22 - 00:10:23:10
Speaker 2
So if you're a good therapist, you should have a pretty well-rounded thought process and know different modalities and how they actually cross into one another.

00:10:23:28 - 00:10:37:12
Speaker 1
Okay. That makes a lot of sense. And then when it look when we're looking at the traditional structure, it's kind of like, hey, you'll meet with me X amount of times per month or per week or whatever, meet you for one hour session and we'll keep it going until you feel better.

00:10:37:22 - 00:10:58:12
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah. I mean, there there's this idea or this understanding that, well, first of all, it's even that, right? Like meet me until you feel better. I don't think I've ever had a therapist say, like, you'll feel better. I hear it. I hear them say You'll learn to manage that. You know, you'll maintain that your depression anxiety never goes away.

00:10:58:12 - 00:11:15:09
Speaker 2
You just get better handling it right. I've never really heard somebody say, We'll just meet until you feel better, because that's not really a thing in the therapy world. It's business model, come in for ten years, put in the work and in ten years you can have a better understanding, more awareness, but you always have your issues. They'll always be there by your side.

00:11:15:15 - 00:11:23:10
Speaker 2
Oh, and also maybe you want to take this medication because it will really help you control anxiety in addition to seeing me every single week for the next ten years.

00:11:24:13 - 00:11:29:08
Speaker 1
You know, I can't. The business brain in me can't help but like be like that's a great business model.

00:11:29:08 - 00:11:31:03
Speaker 2
Such a good one because that's again.

00:11:31:05 - 00:11:46:27
Speaker 1
It's in the practitioner's best interest to have. You keep coming though because that's still money cash flow coming in first. So then I'm kind of here's where did you get jaded like moving into the therapy world that even started you going on this journey of expanding your experiences and your expertize?

00:11:47:18 - 00:12:11:23
Speaker 2
Well, I got jaded because I felt like there could be more, right? I knew, for instance, I knew that I was able to get over my diagnosis. Like I never really fully accepted them. And I noticed that when I did start to actually accept them, I started feeling worse. And then I noticed as I got older and I started rejecting them and I was like, I'm not, I'm not these things.

00:12:11:23 - 00:12:17:21
Speaker 2
And then I also started learning more about the brain, right? And how things, how we function. And that would summarize.

00:12:17:21 - 00:12:31:06
Speaker 1
Me, by the way, that you were sharing with me in the past where you're like, you know, in your traditional track, the neuroscience side, it's not really that big of a thing in terms of the studies. It's more like psychology based versus like the brain function. Okay, got it right.

00:12:31:07 - 00:12:54:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, I mean, and again, could just be my school program, social work talk, no neurology. Even though I was I went for my undergrad in Psych, there was not there was some neurology, not much. Okay. And yeah, everything's more about putting that emphasis on like the conscious and unconscious behaviors, but not talking about deeper neurological processes and how the brain actually works, which I think is extremely important and impactful.

00:12:54:20 - 00:13:11:16
Speaker 2
Right. And so these were things I had to go and learn on my own because I was hungry and curious about how can I create an impact people and in a different, better way. And that's when I started getting jaded was when I started looking at I was working with these clients, but it felt like there was something missing.

00:13:11:16 - 00:13:36:06
Speaker 2
Like we're sitting there and this person's coming to me every week for God. I don't know however many months it is. And I'm noticing that they just they still had the same damn issues. And when I'm addressing the issues and I'm challenging it in a certain way, there's still not much change that's facilitating and I'm just getting curious and I'm like, why the why of like, why is this person even here?

00:13:36:06 - 00:13:54:10
Speaker 2
I would stop coming if I saw that there was no progress being made right. And then I started getting curious about, well, is there something else out there that could maybe facilitate more of a space for change to occur? What could be a better way? Could could it be a lack of knowledge on my end? Could it be a lack of of hope or desire on their side?

00:13:54:10 - 00:14:12:10
Speaker 2
Like, what is it really? And then when I started learning about coaching and this is also another part of that humble pie, right? Because I don't want to say every therapist, but like 90% of therapists, at least at the time, probably think that just coaching is bullshit, you know? Hey, who's this guy who got their $20 shirt online?

00:14:12:10 - 00:14:32:04
Speaker 2
I went to college for six plus years and got my license and my my degree and all that, right? The things that say I'm qualified to do this and so when I started learning about coaching, especially from Tony Robbins side, I was extremely impressed and fascinated. I was like, Wow, this guy is phenomenal. And I started seeing, Oh, maybe there's something to this.

00:14:32:04 - 00:14:51:28
Speaker 2
Maybe there's actually more in coaching than I previously understood. And then I started getting again curious about what else could I possibly have been missing? Because I feel like there's so much missing. And I was like, Oh, wow, look at this. Neurology and physiology and and spirituality. And there's so many other components. And I found that really fascinating.

00:14:51:28 - 00:15:22:27
Speaker 2
And then interestingly enough, if you look, one of the most effective forms of therapy that's out there is called Eric Stone in Arizona. And it's a modality and it's very interesting because Eric Soni in therapy was focused on the individual as a whole. And I think what modern day psychology is really boils down to because of the fact that it's heavily emphasized now on CBT, right, which even in the word is cognitive behavioral therapy, there's so much emphasis on the conscious mind.

00:15:23:13 - 00:15:36:08
Speaker 2
But Eric Sonnen was more about looking at the person as a whole. Like everything about them, they're physiology, the neurology, their spirituality, their deepest inner beliefs, their subconscious. They're just everything.

00:15:36:14 - 00:15:37:11
Speaker 1
It's not siloed.

00:15:37:24 - 00:15:39:06
Speaker 2
Right? And so how.

00:15:39:06 - 00:15:47:16
Speaker 1
Would you define for us CBT real quick, just for those who don't know cognitive behavioral therapy, like would that be considered another modality in the therapy world, for example.

00:15:47:25 - 00:16:06:10
Speaker 2
Right? Yes, it is. So cognitive behavioral therapy is is I mean, it's pretty straightforward based on the based on the terms. It's it's thinking about how do your thoughts, your cognition is impact your behavior. And then starting to understand that like you thought this, you did this, why or you did.

00:16:06:10 - 00:16:07:11
Speaker 1
This the behavior.

00:16:07:22 - 00:16:20:14
Speaker 2
Correct and even even sometimes like pulling out some of the subconscious like, hey, you did this. Why did you do that? I don't know. Well, let's think about it. What was going on that you felt this behavior was appropriate at the time? Why did you choose this behavior over something else?

00:16:20:18 - 00:16:30:18
Speaker 1
It's interesting. That's considered therapy, too, because that sounds very coaching us to me in a sense, to where you're asking those types of questions, because in the coaching world is asking questions, right? Yeah, a lot of questions.

00:16:31:04 - 00:16:53:06
Speaker 2
And it's funny because if you think about it actually, and you look up a lot of the stuff that comes from coaching, like even NLP, NLP is a combination of four different therapeutic modalities. Hmm. Right. So every actually like coaching modalities really come from, from my understanding, at least as I was doing some of the research, they come from some of the greater forms of therapy that's not widely taught.

00:16:53:15 - 00:17:12:24
Speaker 1
So how would you define therapy versus coaching? Because I think like this is getting me really curious now because it's hard for people to describe what they need. Right. But they know they're feeling stressed every day. They know they're feeling anxious every day. You know, I have my approach of how I do it with my brand by teaching like the neuroscience behind it.

00:17:12:24 - 00:17:22:14
Speaker 1
Right. So I'm kind of curious from your perspective, how would you define the difference between both and when one should look for one versus the other or like what to look for, if that makes sense?

00:17:22:19 - 00:17:45:12
Speaker 2
Sure. I agree. So when I when I pitch my brand, I basically tell people, you know, we have we have three modalities in here. We have therapy, mentoring and coaching. And I don't do it in a specific order. I'm more so gauge what your needs are. And so then they might say, well, how, how do you know what what my biggest need is right?

00:17:45:12 - 00:18:16:24
Speaker 2
And say, well, we'll have a conversation. And the way I explain it is therapy is understanding and building consciousness an awareness of you yourself, your past experiences and starting to demystify the cloudiness or the craziness around why you're currently having whatever experience you're having in your life. Because most people are very, extremely unaware that they have pattern their self themselves in certain ways based on the experiences they've had.

00:18:16:24 - 00:18:55:21
Speaker 2
Right, about 90, 95% of all the issues we're facing started in your past. Right? So that's that's really the aspect of what therapy aims to do. It creates a lot of awareness, but it doesn't really push you forward. And that's that's at least how I feel. And then when you look at coaching, what I've seen with coaching is that coaching is about taking the awareness to the level you're currently at and then taking your standards and raising them significantly higher than they're already at and challenging yourself to become more of who you should be based on what you want out of life, by, you know, challenging your behaviors, your actions, your processes.

00:18:55:21 - 00:19:09:17
Speaker 2
And now that you have that awareness, you can actually challenge it properly and build upon that go further and faster. So that's how I would usually say like that's the difference, right? Therapies based on past the present. I think coaching is more based on present to future.

00:19:10:17 - 00:19:36:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because you know, one of the things that I was concerned about when I first started off in the coaching space was like, where, where is that line drawn? Right. Where? Because I've heard that's the thing is just like we were just having this conversation before we started recording, but it's like I hear different perspectives. Like I've spoken to psychiatrists, I went deep into the rabbit hole of asking questions, like to therapist, to psychologist, because like, where is this line drawn?

00:19:36:04 - 00:19:56:26
Speaker 1
Because in the coaching space, where I might call them like the purist coaches, right? Where it's just like you're not allowed to tell, you can only ask which is fine, right? But like I kind of got curious of like where does that line get drawn? Because I guess a fear I had inside of me before was just like, imagine some therapist coming up to me like, you're not qualified to do this.

00:19:56:26 - 00:20:22:23
Speaker 1
You should not be talking about these traumatic stuff with people, because what if use something you say causes them to kill themselves? You see what I'm saying? Like as a coach. So like but over the years, as I've been working with more and more people, what I found as a coach is like, like you just said, sometimes they're not aware of something in their past, which is coming up right now in the present moment and the moment, they just take some time to process it.

00:20:22:23 - 00:20:42:21
Speaker 1
I'm not going into super psychoanalytic mode, but I welcome it. Right. But that's the times when this shit has really occur and boom, it's like night and day difference. Yeah. Do you see what I'm saying? Because Dave connected the dots on something, not because of something I did per se. Right, right. But we held that space to have the conversation and then they just come to this big aha moment and it's no longer a problem for them.

00:20:42:21 - 00:20:48:23
Speaker 1
I can explain what's happening at a neurological level, but like I was just kind of curious on your perspective on that.

00:20:49:27 - 00:21:16:04
Speaker 2
I, I feel very strongly about how modern day coaching is. I think that a lot of modern day coaches I will say this pretty openly, I suppose, I think that a lot of modern day coaches are bullshit. I think that a lot of them are afraid to really help a lot of their clients. And it could be because of what we're talking about right there is like, what if I say something that they commit suicide, right?

00:21:16:04 - 00:21:35:05
Speaker 2
Like, I don't know if that's necessarily a super ginormous issue. Right? Because you also have to think of the clientele you're working with and maybe, maybe it's different for some of the clients, right? Like you and I, we both work with high performing individuals, right? We're working with people who are high functioning. High functioning people will occasionally have those thoughts and feelings and emotions.

00:21:35:05 - 00:21:55:00
Speaker 2
Right. But they're also in a realm where I don't want to say that they're less likely diminish it. Right, for people. But usually a higher performing person might have moments of weakness, but they're maybe 80% more likely to come in a bit quicker and throw out an arbitrary number. I've worked with low, lower functioning people and that's what we call them in the field, right?

00:21:55:00 - 00:22:19:05
Speaker 2
Like people who are in homeless shelters and and inpatient units and hospitals and clinics and they're not really getting out of there. Right. They have schizophrenia, psychosis, things like that. You know, those people tend to have a higher risk factor. Those people tend to have a lot less emotional stability and support systems like the things that your average higher functioning person would have, your lower functioning person would not.

00:22:19:05 - 00:22:44:24
Speaker 2
So it's really about like that risk analysis. And I think a lot of coaches are so afraid to do the depth work, which is unfortunate because it actually takes away from powerful transformation. And there have been coaches, but one coach I really deeply respected, she was an executive coach for like 25 years and I was asking her a million questions because I wanted to get into coaching and she was just telling me she's like, Yeah, she's like, you know, if a client stuck with just sit with them.

00:22:45:00 - 00:23:00:02
Speaker 2
And I'm like, Well, what if it, you know, they're probably stuck on something from their past? Why don't you go into it with them? And she's like, Oh, no, no, I don't do that. We don't do that as coaches. She's like, If you're going to become a coach, you have to understand that is a fine line. We don't cross, you know, for legal reasons and this reason and that reason and blah, blah, blah.

00:23:00:11 - 00:23:16:11
Speaker 2
And you know, first off, I find that a little funny because one is coaching is a wildly unregulated field. Anyone listening to this podcast right now, turn around, be like, I'm a coach. Nobody could really question it. Right? Right. And so I found it a little funny. And the number two is I said, Well, what if you are?

00:23:16:13 - 00:23:33:08
Speaker 2
Are you going to refer them out? Are you going to send them to a therapist or are you going to something to somebody else? And she's like, No. Sometimes the process is just sitting with them. Like, That's bullshit. You just say you're unqualified, so you can't. You've maybe your your skill set or your tool set, you've hit the capacity and you're at limitation with this client and they need to go find someone else.

00:23:33:08 - 00:23:50:00
Speaker 2
But don't sit there and just take someone's money because you've been told by the ICF that that's the process, because I think that's bullshit too. I don't think that's the process. I think that means you're limited and you should do it right by the client and not continue to take their money while you don't actually provide value to.

00:23:50:26 - 00:24:12:06
Speaker 1
Right. So the way I view it is like, look, coaching is a skill, therapy is a skill set, right? But what's also interesting to me is like, number one, I totally agree with you. Like you have to know the client, you have to get to know them. Like if if it's a hardware issue, meaning like there is something chemically severely imbalanced in their physical brain, right?

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:30:25
Speaker 1
Where, number one, I realize you can tell it's a you can clearly tell when this person is like, you know, not able to it's something feels clearly off versus it feeling really subtly off. Yeah. But what I also find interesting, though, is, you know, one of the way I explain it with the whole like fly for years response with neurology, right?

00:24:30:25 - 00:24:53:20
Speaker 1
That's like a lot of hyper formers I found are great at the fighting. So how do they deal with their pain? They just work harder versus processing their pain. Do you see what I'm saying? Like that's their coping mechanism, but the world rewards fighters, right? With more money, more opportunities, whatnot. And then you see the people who are like the homeless, if it's not a chemical imbalance going on in their brain, which is for a lot of them it is right.

00:24:53:21 - 00:25:18:27
Speaker 1
Like this is from my pharmacy background that I'm remembering. But if they actually have like a cognitively well-rounded, like somewhat roll around their brain, it could be things like a freeze response to my pain. I just numb out and I just just don't take action. But then the outside life looks totally different night and day, right? You can have the high performing, depressed person making millions of dollars and then you can have the homeless person then freeze.

00:25:19:13 - 00:25:40:00
Speaker 1
But it's still pain going on. And I realize as long as you're willing to face that pain, then that's when progress happens. It's not someone outside of you coming in and saving the day per se, right. And fixing you, quote unquote. Right. But like you said, it's cultivating that space together to allow transformation to occur. And that's kind of what I found interesting.

00:25:40:00 - 00:25:51:13
Speaker 1
So like I think where people get confused though, because, you know, if I had this conversation with you when I was depressed in my younger twenties, I think I would have had more clarity on who to ask help for.

00:25:51:22 - 00:25:52:10
Speaker 2
Right.

00:25:52:10 - 00:26:09:22
Speaker 1
Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. So I'm kind of curious how you would break that down if I'm like, I know something's going on inside of me, I need support. And people are telling me, You should see a coach, you should see a therapist, you should see a coach you like. How would you define the recommendations from your perspective on how to find the right help that you see what I'm saying?

00:26:09:22 - 00:26:23:22
Speaker 1
Like, what would you tell me to look for it and whoever I decide to ask for help for, because I now believe there's such a thing as good therapist and bad therapist, good coaches and bad coaches, because that was my big eye opener going into the medical field. I'm like, Oh wait, there's such a thing as bad doctors.

00:26:23:22 - 00:26:48:14
Speaker 1
I'm fixing their freaking mistakes. All right, like, right. I'm like, don't do that. That's going to hurt the patient. Yeah. Yeah. They just had no idea, right? Because they only take one semester of pharmacology versus, you know, pharmacist taking it for six years. But anyway, but I'm kind of curious on your recommendations, like if I know something's going on inside of me and I'm distressed, whether it's the stress, the constant frustration, the constant depression, anxiety, how would you help me?

00:26:48:17 - 00:27:02:10
Speaker 1
Like, how can you help me? And like the audience who might be going through these scenarios? How do you help them find the right support? I think that was my battle. Growing up with depression and anxiety is just like I didn't even know what to look for right?

00:27:02:10 - 00:27:29:14
Speaker 2
So it's always interesting because one of the funny things about therapy, coaching, things like that is the parallel of it's a lot like dating. You have to go and meet a few people because there is a so as a speaker, I'm going to digress for a second. As a speaker, one of the things that I've learned about giving a powerful speech is this is a very standard format is steep right story teaching tool.

00:27:29:16 - 00:27:47:06
Speaker 2
So you want to tell your story, you want to have that likability, the authenticity, the trust factor. Then somebody is going to once they like you and trust you and feel that you're authentic and that you have their best interest in hand. Right. They are going to be open to learning from you. You are capable of teaching them.

00:27:47:19 - 00:28:04:10
Speaker 2
And then once they're capable of being taught, they're probably going to look for a type of tool, something that they can do to actually start changing their life. Yeah. So I think the first thing that everybody should always do when they're considering is find someone that you feel like you want to see, not even somebody you're comfortable with.

00:28:04:10 - 00:28:23:00
Speaker 2
Right. The the mentors that I've had in my life are always people that make me feel extremely uncomfortable, where I'm almost always hesitant to hop on the phone with them because I know they're going to call me out on my shit and I know that's what I need, right? And so it's not always about what you want. Sometimes it's about understanding what you need, and maybe you don't understand that.

00:28:23:00 - 00:28:42:02
Speaker 2
But that's why it's like, go meet a few people and see what feels right. Then you want to look at. If you do have that higher level of awareness, like, what do you think you might need if you're aware that you're constantly just laying in bed and you're feeling depressed and you're not getting much done? You might look for somebody who is going to help you analyze why you're doing that.

00:28:42:21 - 00:29:00:00
Speaker 2
You might also then want to look for somebody who can also challenge you to do something else. Like I always challenge my clients. I've always had a bit of a motivational coaching approach, right? Where if somebody was depressed, they'd say, Well, what's what's the smallest task you could start with right now? Oh, well, I guess my desk is a bit of a mess.

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:17:11
Speaker 2
I have papers I need to organize. Okay. How about every day you just do one paper, you look at a paper and you decide if you need to keep it or you throw it in the trash. Right? And so you want to have people that you feel could actually meet your way. Right. And understand your position because you might get a coach that's super gung ho.

00:29:17:11 - 00:29:31:07
Speaker 2
It's like it's easy. Just like, here's what we're going to do. You're going to go to the desk in which you go to the desk. I want you just take all those papers and you have 300 there. Fine, or you separate and piles of 150 each. And what you go through the one £50 and the other 150 and it's like chill bro.

00:29:32:05 - 00:29:52:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. So also knowing a bit about where you're at and checking in with yourself first and that's I think that's probably the first part for someone to get started is, is understand the feel of who you're looking for, understand what you need, or even a combination of what you need and what you want and then look to see kind of what their style and approach is.

00:29:52:20 - 00:30:09:06
Speaker 2
Because I've had funny enough, I've had a lot of clients come to me and they're just like, I hate my therapist. Like, Why do you hate your therapist? And they say, Because they just sit there and frickin stare at me at any time, any time they do talk. It's a damn question. And it's like, I don't want another question.

00:30:09:06 - 00:30:15:02
Speaker 2
I want an answer. Yeah. And so I've always found that I'm going.

00:30:15:02 - 00:30:19:21
Speaker 1
Through this really troubling issue. What do you think I should do? And the response is, Well, what do you think you should do?

00:30:20:08 - 00:30:38:16
Speaker 2
What would make you feel best about this? And it's always funny because it's now listen, when I was in therapy and this is I set out to become a therapist that I needed. That was a part of it, too. Right. And when I was in therapy, I would go in, I would look at my phone when I got it, and I'd be like, okay, like we're just starting.

00:30:38:16 - 00:30:58:10
Speaker 2
It's it's 503. And I would rant like I had so many issues growing up and, and seemingly because none of it was my fault. It was everybody else always something. And I would rant for maybe like 20, 25 minutes. I'd look at the clock, it'd be 530 halfway through our session and I just finished ranting and my therapist would look at me.

00:30:58:10 - 00:31:11:14
Speaker 2
Any crinkle is his nose and scrunch his face and closed his eyes and be like, So what else is going on? And I'm like, Oh, it's, it's.

00:31:12:11 - 00:31:14:24
Speaker 1
It's like as if this wasn't enough for you. Like.

00:31:16:09 - 00:31:35:10
Speaker 2
It's like I just yelled for 25 minutes, man. What do you mean? What else is going on? I give you a half hour of what's going on. And it's funny because you do realize, right, to some degree you are looking for answers and there's a a fundamental thing. So so you might not want to go to therapy if this is if this is not what you're looking for.

00:31:35:17 - 00:32:08:16
Speaker 2
A lot of therapists fundamentally believe and I believe this, too, that all clients have every answer they need within them. I agree 100%. The the issue that comes up and gets a lot of people pissed at their therapist is that even though they have all the answers sometimes to get to the answer, it requires a new piece of information so that they can have a realization or an understanding that they didn't have before, which could give them a better result or a better perspective than they're currently having.

00:32:08:16 - 00:32:28:27
Speaker 2
And so a lot of therapists don't want to input the info, but I'm a firm believer that to start a new process or a new belief system or a new perspective, you actually need a new piece of info. Otherwise you're running on the same operating system, right? It's like having a computer you never updated and wondering why you can't play brand new video games on the old game cart.

00:32:28:28 - 00:32:46:05
Speaker 2
Well, it needs an update. And that's the same with us. If we're struggling with the same thing over and over and over and you don't get an updated piece of info or an updated perspective, you're going to go back to the same thing. Like that's just how humans are. We run on default mode. We have a computer system that likes being on default.

00:32:46:18 - 00:32:48:01
Speaker 2
So that is that the.

00:32:48:12 - 00:33:12:04
Speaker 1
Subconscious mind where by the time you're 35 years old, 90 to 95% goes on autopilot. Subconscious. Exactly. So what I'm what I'm hearing, there's a couple of nuggets that I'm really taking away. Number one is like if you need support, you can actually even treat it like dating where it's it's okay. Like there might be a therapist that you're just like, whoa, like not helpful after you give it a few tries, go on a few dates.

00:33:12:11 - 00:33:27:23
Speaker 1
Yep. And there might be another one. You're like, I really like this person. I want to keep going back. It's helping me. And one of the things that I found too is just like one of the things that I'm also hearing, there is such a thing as coaches who can still get you what you need, even though your past might be getting in the way.

00:33:28:05 - 00:33:46:24
Speaker 1
So to an extent, right. So that's kind of where I'm curious about to where it's just like so one of the things I realized is like, you know, when we experience these feelings, one of the one of the, you know, things I've learned about emotions is it's a record of the past. You're not feeling what's happening to you.

00:33:46:24 - 00:34:08:25
Speaker 1
You're feeling what happened to you, right? So you're feeling all these feelings and it's like, how do we process them? And then that's where like, you know, you go into the past a lot with people. But what I've also found is like when it comes to getting the support you need, someone needs to be able to help you make sense of things where it's just like if you want to when it comes to like your identity.

00:34:09:21 - 00:34:22:19
Speaker 1
I think for a lot of us it reminds me of that story. I don't know if you ever heard that story with the elephant, where it's in the circus. It's this humongous grown elephant. And all that's keeping it from running away is a is a rope that's tied to its tail, and it's a stake peg to the ground.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:44:05
Speaker 1
And some person's really curious going like to the circus owner, why is that elephant not running away? It totally can just rip that peg out with his nose and just run away. And the circus owner's reply was, Well, you know, when that elephant was a baby, it wasn't able to pull that stake out. So ever since then, even though it's a grown adult now, it still believes it can't take that out.

00:34:44:12 - 00:35:14:26
Speaker 1
But so think one of the things that happens for a lot of us is we're still in the identity of a past self. So for whatever reason, we believe that about ourselves. I'm weak. I'm not good enough. I'm. I suck, I'm stupid. And I think that's kind of the first step that therapists can be really good at helping you identify why you have this type of belief system, this identity and the work, all of that stuff out and then I feel like we're coaching can also help in that sense is like once you become aware of that though, that's what helps you get back to the present moment and now make a choice that changes

00:35:14:26 - 00:35:19:06
Speaker 1
your future. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So, yeah, go ahead.

00:35:19:15 - 00:35:40:19
Speaker 2
No, just say it. I definitely have something to add in there because it's actually pretty interesting. So in the in the psych field, right, the term that we throw around with that is called learned helplessness. Yes. And it's developed. So there's a lot of really cool research on this. If you study positive psychology by Martin Selig and Angela Duckworth was actually a part of.

00:35:40:20 - 00:36:03:13
Speaker 2
So I was doing my own self education and this positive psychology course I was taking had not only the stuff of mind so like, but Angela Duckworth was in there talking about resilience and grit and their studies and findings and it was really cool, right? Because they were talking about how there were these, you know, these two mice and they put them on a floor and the floor would electrocute them basically.

00:36:03:27 - 00:36:25:22
Speaker 2
And one mouse had the option to run around. And if you hit a button, a door would open and he would run out and he would avoid the shock. The other mouse would run around. And he was trying to find a way out. You never could. And eventually he just lay there and started taking the shots. And then when they put both the mouse together with mice together and they put them in the same room, the mouse that knew how to run out would go.

00:36:25:22 - 00:36:38:06
Speaker 2
And he pressed the button and he would run the hell out of the mouse. That learned all. Whatever happened to him was get shot, continue to lay there and get shocked, even though he watched the other mice, the other mouse run out of run.

00:36:38:06 - 00:36:40:23
Speaker 1
Out, that it had an opportunity to leave, but it didn't.

00:36:41:02 - 00:36:52:05
Speaker 2
Correct. And so what we see which in which is interesting in that and even though people like to say, well, that's mice, not humans. Humans, interestingly enough, operate very much the same. Right?

00:36:52:10 - 00:37:00:02
Speaker 1
You might even be succeeding. You're literally watching them do it before their eyes. And you have your thoughts on like, well, I can't do that because X, Y or Z.

00:37:00:10 - 00:37:21:11
Speaker 2
Exactly. Well, yeah, you already learned it. It's no use for like I'm not going to bother and try. I'm just going to get shock. In fact, humans are more interesting because of the fact that we can also create problems. So not only why would I leave the room when I'm just going to get shocked anyway. It's also what the hell's out there?

00:37:21:11 - 00:37:39:14
Speaker 2
How do I know that guy didn't just run into a room where he's getting shocked? Even worse. I'm not leaving this room. I know it's in this room. I'm comfortable. I've learned to live with this shock. I'm okay with knowing. I'm always going to get shocked for the rest of my life because now I've learned that if I'm going to get shock the rest of the life, this is this is all it is.

00:37:39:14 - 00:37:45:28
Speaker 2
I could deal with this. And so we will deal with the pain that we believe we are capable of dealing with.

00:37:46:04 - 00:38:05:01
Speaker 1
Isn't that also the reason why individual certain individuals that are in abusive relationships, for example, stay in abusive relationships? Because at least the pain of the abuse is predictable versus going out into this unknown territory. And that actually might feel scarier for some people to step into that uncertainty and unpredictability.

00:38:05:01 - 00:38:21:14
Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's a few reasons there, right? Is one like exactly what you're saying, too. It's it's it is the fear that they won't find anyone better. Right. A lot of the times in this relationships, there's high levels of manipulation. It's like, oh, you're going to leave me. Nobody want you. You suck your crap, you're shit.

00:38:21:19 - 00:38:47:25
Speaker 2
You're lucky I'm even with you because nobody else would deal with you. You're a mess, right? And so it could be that it could be a fear of what you've created to be the worse idea of what's out there. It could be that manipulation and gaslighting where you feel completely helpless and isolated, or it could just be that you actually don't even think there's anything better based on, well, my grandfather beat my grandma, my father beat my mom and beat me.

00:38:48:06 - 00:39:00:10
Speaker 2
This man's beating me. And that's just how it is. I've witnessed it for three generations. I don't believe that I will ever be safe with a man because my belief systems have shown me no men are safe.

00:39:01:13 - 00:39:20:13
Speaker 1
Wow. Wow. So. So I'm kind of curious for men. I feel like I could go down so many rabbit holes together with you, like if we were to kind of some things up and there I there's at the end of the day what I've realized a lot of the behaviors that we're in, like it just comes down to we're hurting.

00:39:20:25 - 00:39:39:07
Speaker 1
I think we're all hurting to some extent. We're all in pain. And for a lot of us, whether I think a lot of us have that lone wolf mentality, I don't need help. I don't need support. But I think a lot of us are deeply aware that we do need support like that. We can't we can't do this stuff alone, like I think all of us included, right?

00:39:39:07 - 00:39:54:27
Speaker 1
Like that's why we catch up. That's why we have conversations with each other. Yeah. For for what would you recommend? Like if I'm, if someone listening is aware, like, you know what? I want support. I'm ready for it. Like, what would you, what would you share with them today to see if we can help point people in the right direction.

00:39:55:13 - 00:40:18:19
Speaker 2
I would I would say analyze where you're currently at in your life. Right. Like get a really good idea. Like are you wildly successful and you're still struggling to find happiness, right? Are you are you someone who's not really making progress and you feel like you could be more successful? Or are you someone who is okay with your life but feels like there could be more, maybe there isn't more, whatever.

00:40:19:00 - 00:40:46:15
Speaker 2
Right? Like get a very good gauge of where your personally at first. Then from there start looking through the internet. The internet's a great place you don't have to use it for porn and video games. You could do other things with it, right? So so start looking through there, start looking at will once you kind of analyze where you're at and maybe where you want to be, then start looking at who, who's, who's in the space.

00:40:46:15 - 00:41:04:20
Speaker 2
So feel like, well, I really want to fix my mindset. All right. Are there people that help with mindset? Right. Like who do I go to to work on mindset and then you'll get a Google frickin thing. Oh, or maybe I should look into mindset coaches or, you know, I'm really dealing with anxiety and depression. Should I look for a therapist or should I try for a coach?

00:41:04:20 - 00:41:35:08
Speaker 2
Well, how deep anxiety, how deep should depression on you're on medication? Are you living in a in a terrible situation for yourself? Right. Right. Because some people aren't empowered enough to step into coaching and some people are too empowered to be a therapist. My my could be my opinion. Right. And so I think just kind of getting a really good gauge of where you're at in your life personally at the moment and then looking at where you would want to go and could be one of those people that might support that.

00:41:35:16 - 00:41:53:17
Speaker 2
And kind of like you said, and as I've touched upon already, is don't be afraid to go out on multiple dates book like five therapists in a row or five therapists and a coach. Right. Everybody pretty much nowadays offers a free consultation. Yeah. So of that call, see how the entity is, see how the conversation is, look and see.

00:41:53:17 - 00:42:13:16
Speaker 2
Does the person you're talking to jump in, make assumptions like as you're talking, they try to finish your sentences right? Like or do they give you really good feedback or are they just staring at you and nodding and then asking? Yes. And what else? Right. Like, what do you want? Who do you want to help guide you? And how do you want them to help guide you?

00:42:13:16 - 00:42:32:14
Speaker 2
Because understand that you're the expert on yourself. You know how you learn best. You know what energy you like. You know the type of person you're looking for. And you know what you need and what you want. Or maybe you don't always know what you need, but you know what you want. And the need could be adjusted and pointed out later, and then just start basing it on that.

00:42:32:14 - 00:42:33:17
Speaker 2
Like start your search somewhere.

00:42:34:17 - 00:42:52:12
Speaker 1
I love that. I love that. That was gold. So one of the things I really love about you is you're trained, like you said earlier, like you've trained yourself in multiple modalities, right? You're a licensed therapist, you're a trained coach. You know, you're a mentor to many people. So how can how can people find out more about you and your work?

00:42:53:03 - 00:43:12:03
Speaker 2
They can go to my website. They go to WW Dot Vincent in Font Day Dot Life. They can get a free resource while they're on there. If you go to the resources tab and get my free mission board template, it's a pretty cool thing. I'm not going to spoil it. I will tell you how to help you change your life and there is a whole ten page template on how you can do it.

00:43:12:03 - 00:43:15:20
Speaker 2
So if you download that for free and you can also use it.

00:43:15:23 - 00:43:16:19
Speaker 1
For free, I.

00:43:16:19 - 00:43:35:11
Speaker 2
Love that clarity for free. And lastly, you can check me out. I love Instagram and that's probably where I'm most active. So Instagram is at vid dot and Fenty and now you can see the blue checkmark that that you know you paid for with metta so nice you can't you can't mistake it. There's no other one. I have the blue check.

00:43:35:21 - 00:43:41:24
Speaker 1
It's awesome. Dude, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate you and I'm sure we'll speak more said.

00:43:42:07 - 00:44:15:09
Speaker 2
There thank thanks I had.